Machining Rotors under warranty

[Michael White]

I had a problem with a Denali customer which
led to a open discussion with my advisors
about warranty brake pulsations. I know the bulletins, torc sticks, etc. etc. But following proper torques, rotors still warp and pulsate. The customer came in 30k miles
with a brake pulsation. We inspected and determined the front brakes need to be replaced due to 1/32 left on pads to sensors.
I declined any warranty machining since this is part of a normal brake job. Customer was very upset about this. Here's the reason for the discussion: GM says do not machine rotors unless heavily grooved or warped. Therefore, rotor machining should not be part of a brake job. Where in any manual does it say rotor machining is a maintenance problem? Other than the bulletin describing wheel nut torque, I am unaware of such documentation. The reason we do not machine rotors, under warranty, when brake jobs are needed is GM's mental programming and fear of debits and emphasis on warranty cost management. this clearly outways CSI and what is right. Rotor pulsations are clearly a problem in this area. If the brakes were not warn out,(my assistant reminded me 1/32 to the sensor is not warn out; they are warn out when sensor contact is made) I would have machined the rotors under warranty. My assistant reminded me Honda and BMW will machine the rotors, even if you need a brake job, during the warranty period.
My assistant tells me and feels any time
brakes pulsate, it should be warranty, unless the brakes have been abused or severely overheated. I do agree with him, but am prejudiced by warranty cost controls and potential charge back potential. GM has not been clear on this matter. What does everyone think?? What would you do. Would you do machining of rotors, under warranty, even though a brake job is needed??
Mike

[MBailey]

Michael,

I know what you're up against, having formerly been an Oldsmobile service manager. In my opinion, this is Customer Pay all the way. The only exception (for me anyway) would be if the customer's pads had plenty of pad material left - in that case I would handle the turning of the rotors as a warranty issue. I know GM says not to turn rotors as part of a routine brake job, but we both know that if you don't turn the rotors you will have noise problems, shudder, vibration, etc. once the brakes have a few thousand miles on them (or less).

You know as well as I do that if you machine these rotors under warranty at this mileage and your rep reviews the claim, you will probably get hammered for it, particularly if he/she sees a CP replacement of the brake pads on the same RO. (Believe me, I speak from personal experience).

The Denali is a very heavy vehicle, and the fact that your customer got 30,000+ miles on the brake pads is quite reasonable. I am with a Nissan store, and quite often we replace brake pads worn to the sensors at less than 30,000 miles (Customer Pay). We don't usually get too much grief from customers about it, I guess because import owners tend to be more maintenance conscious than domestic owners. (Not a slam against domestic owners - just my personal experience).

When we see a vehicle with a brake pulsation issue, we are allowed by Nissan to turn the rotors under warranty (as long as it is under 3 years or 36K miles). However, they would frown upon us turning the rotors under warranty if the pads were being replaced as CP.

We're really in a catch-22 because the manufacturers continue to represent the new products almost to the point of being maintenance-free, but you and I and all of our fellow SM's know different.

My suggestion would be to offer to machine the rotors for free if the customer will pay for the brake pads. He/she is going to need them replaced soon anyway, and that definitely will not be warranty. You will have to policy adjust the labor, but at least you might save a customer.


(By the way, BMW does NOT turn rotors under warranty - they are always REPLACED).

Best of luck to you!

Mark W. Bailey

[This message has been edited by MBailey (edited 08-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by MBailey (edited 08-26-2000).]

[warr_wiz]

I agree with the confusion but here is my personal policy. Since GM tells me that resurfacing rotors is not needed during routine brake service, if a pulsation does occur while the vehicle is still under the warranty period, resurfacing the rotors is a warranty item. (Any GM dealers with "N" body vehicles know how well rotors stand up) Depending on the life left on the pads, I will have the customer pay for the pads if needed. I have seen many vehicles that have worn out brake pads (yes, down to the sensors) at 20K miles. In trucks this is very common. If the customer continues driving and goes to metal on the pads scoring the rotors, then I take those on a case by case basis. Otherwise, in my mind brake rotors and pulsation issues are warranty.

[This message has been edited by warr_wiz (edited 08-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by warr_wiz (edited 08-26-2000).]

[sallen1]

I agree with the warranty-pays conclusion.

Our experience with trucks is limited since Cadillac has only sold the Escalade for little over one year. Here's what I've learned:

Brakes on these vehicles wear out quickly. It's almost impossible to sell a customer brake service every 12,000 miles, but that's what is happening. Driving conditions? Mostly freeway and around town and no other vehicle has experienced such rapid use of brakes, that is, until I checked with my truck-dealer buddies. Yes, the Escalade, Denali, and old-style Yukon/Tahoe chassis is too heavy for the postage-stamp sized pads that the truck is equipped. Three year lease, three brake-jobs guaranteed.

Here's what I've told my service dept. to do: If the truck has less than 12,000 miles, replace and resurface under warranty. If there's more than 12K, get the customer to pay for labor and charge parts to warranty. If the rotors are warped (verified by measurement, test drive) then resurface under warranty.

I know, more exposure for trouble from the warranty police.

scott

ps. Interesting to note that our competitors don't argue too much about warranty expense (BMW, Lexus, et. al) and it's only since the re-org. (and new reps) that the screws have tightened. Also interesting is that the competition does a better job selling!

Oh well, another symptom of the General's malaise.

[RICHLOWE]

DOING THE OLD "PAD SLAP" IS SELF DEFEATING IN MY EXPERIENCE. WHETHER UNDER WARRANTY OR NOT, IF A CUSTOMER HAS TO COME BACK A SECOND TIME FOR THE SAME OR RELATED REPAIR, HE'S GONNA BE TICKED.

MY OWNER SAYS DO THE RIGHT THING. IN MY OPINION, FOR WHATEVER THE REASON, THESE VEHICLES ARE GOING THROUGH BRAKES AT AN ALARMING RATE--GOD FORBID YOU OWN A "W" BODY. THE ONLY REASONS THAT MAKE SENSE TO ME IS POOR PADS AND POOR ENGINEERING OF THE BRAKE SYSTEM. YES, THERE ARE SOME CUSTOMERS WHO RIDE THE BRAKES OR OTHERWISE ABUSE THEM. BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT GM WOULD LIKE US TO BELIEVE.

MY PHILOSOPHY, THOUGH I KNOW IT IS RISKY, IS TO DOCUMENT THE HECK OUT OF EACH ONE SO THAT WHEN I DO GET AUDITED, I AT LEAST HAVE MY BUTT COVERED FROM A DOCUMENTATION STAND POINT. I MAKE GM KNOW AT EVERY POSSIBLE OPPORTUNITY HOW I FEEL ABOUT THEIR BRAKE SYSTEMS IN GENERAL. NOT GETTING ANYWHERE, BUT I SURE SLEEP BETTER AT NIGHT.

AS MY GRAMPA USED TO SAY, "ALWAYS REMEMBER AND NEVER FORGET, YOU CAN NEVER GO WRONG BY MAKING THE CUSTOMER HAPPY."

[lovemotors]

Here is my two cents worth.
First of all why would anyone want to machine rotors under warranty. If you cut the rotors thinner then they are going to warp even quicker.I know GM wants them resurfaced due to the cost but how is this taking care of the customer? Also don't you think the customer will be back just about the time the vehicle is just out of warranty for his second resurfacing? Rotor warpage is not a maintenance item in my opinion.The warranty protects the customer against defects in material and workmanship and I think this is a defect in the materials used or a poorly designed rotor.The warranty police love to beat you up on this one as I have been through 3 GM audits where this issue was on the table for charge backs each time.I say make the factory pay for the rotor replacement if the vehicle is in bumper to bumper warranty.

[Michael White]

I have talked to several factory poeple on this subject trying to push a response. Basically, no on ein GM wants to put a definitive answer to the question. I really agree rotors should be either machined or replaced when warped under warranty. Do other manufacutrers have such warpage problems as we do? Do they say it is related to lug nut torque?? I think GM should do like BMW does; require rotors to be replaced every brake job. they will be able to increase the brake performance accross the board. It is unfortunate that there is not a specific policy, which puts our minds thinking CSI, or protection against audit?? How sad. Did I here correctly GM is nstill dropping market share??
Mike

[lovemotors]

Well put Michael............

[John, Los Angeles.]

My 97 firebird's rear pads wore out at 16k with rotors wroped. Many of my GM owner friens have complained of the same problem.I know GM knows of this problem but they seem to blame it on the driver. The car also has awful drivetrain backlash and lifter leakdown noise on starting. GM's market share of 28% is going to be a high number if they don't get their quality back on track. My final comment... their dealers are the worse.

[gizmo]

John, Los Angeles,

Exactly what does your question have to do with the topic of this discussion??

I've serviced many late model F-bodies...The rear pads do seem to wear faster than many other 4 wheel disc brake cars, but they usually go 28-30K miles at least. Rear rotor warpage is rare in my experience. Do you drive with both feet? Do you drive through standing water after heavy brake usage? Was your car still under warranty (within the 3/36 bumper-bumper period) when your brakes wore out?

Finally, your comment about the dealers is true to a point but nowhere near fair.

Many dealers I've worked for were pricks & they treated the customer like crap. Some others were much more "customer oriented". BUT, in either case, how a customer was treated often hinged on his/her attitude toward the dealership personnel.

Remember, they are people too. They try to maintain a professional attitude toward customers, but no one likes to be screamed at & cussed & generally embarassed in front of his/her coworkers. If you have a legitimate warranty complaint, see the dealership's general manager and speak politely to him/her. The GM will usually get your problem resolved. If the GM doesn't resolve your problem to your satisfaction, contact the dealer principle or General Motors directly. Amazingly, all of this is listed in your OWNER'S MANUAL and/or WARRANTY GUIDE. Imagine that!

If for some reason you're still not satisfied after the manufacturer is involved, contact one of the internet gripe sites like lemonaidcars.com.