coming up with LTG times

[Jen]

I've been Warranty Administrator for only half a year and I must say it is a challenge, not only the job itself, but having to deal with the techs and the LTG issues. They are constantly complaining when they get "stuck" with a warranty job because most don't pay as well as the customer pay equivalent would. I recently went to a seminar and, among other things, learned how they come up with the LTG times. One of the guys was griping about how much time he spent on a certain job, and I tried to explain how they come up with the times. He said he had been to some kind of training and actually watched them time everything out. He also said that they timed out only the repair and didn't take into consideration all the time it takes to take out surrounding parts to get to the problem. I was told in the seminar that they do add that time for "prepping". Any info would be appreciated so I can pass it along to all my guys next time they complain. They seem to think that filling out a Request for Review sheet is a waste of time and no one will listen, but any information anyone can give may help. Thanks!!

[jrcal]

Jen, I can tell you (having been a tech and working the line for 10 years before I became a manager) the tech has a lot of room to complain. The time studies are always controversial at best, usually incorrect at worst. A lot of the jobs can be done in the time the labor time guide lists. However a lot of the times are not correct which is exactly why the request for review forms are so important. If enough of the forms are recieved then a review usually takes place and the correct time is usually updated. But, this is a long and futile process.

Since I also do the warranty, I would like to offer some tips that may help. (You may be already using these ideas)
1. make the tech list on the shop copy the time and words or phrase "check for leaks using dye and black light" (if he or she did do this) as you can get up to .5 hours for this alone when an engine oil leak repair is done. Also, leak analysis is allowed for certain labor ops for coolant leaks, trans leaks, AC leaks, power steering leaks etc. Refer to the analyze leak description in your labor guide
2. if diag time is used, (make the tech punch the clock and write comments about his or her findings during the diagnosis) this is good for up to .3 hours on most repairs and more for PCM related diag as per the LTG)
3. make the tech get authorization from the service management for extra time or straight time (if allowed) BEFORE he comes to you and complains about the time and make sure the tech has the service manager sign off on the repair order (as per the P and P manual) if extra time is allowed

I have found that by making the tech responsibe for the "extra times allowed" requirements, and for filling out the request for review forms, he or she has a lot less room to argue about the time paid for the claim. For example: if the tech complains about the power door switch only paying .2 hours, I simply turn over the hard copy and ask "where is the clock time or straight time for the diagnosis?" If the correct information is not documented I say "had you done the procedure correctly, I could have added .3 hours for diag or added the approved straight time to the .2 hours you got paid." So far this has worked at my shop. Your Service Manager should support you. I hope this helps you.

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JC


[This message has been edited by jrcal (edited 04-13-99).]

[This message has been edited by jrcal (edited 04-13-99).]

[This message has been edited by jrcal (edited 04-13-99).]

[MARY SHERICK]

I AGREE WITH JRCAL. YOU WILL SPEND THE REST OF YOUR WARRANTY LIFE DEALING WITH THIS ISSUE. ANOTHER POINT TO MAKE IS THE AMOUNT OF TIME THE TECH SPENDS GRIPING VERBALLY IS NOT PRODUCTIVE. THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME FILLING OUT THE REQUEST FOR REVIEW AT LEAST HAS THE CHANCE TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION.. IT IS IMPORTANT TO BUILD A GOOD WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TECHS, AS WELL AS YOUR SERVICE MANAGER. IT IS YOUR JOB TO GET THEM ALL THE MONEY YOU CAN, WITHIN THE RULES. IT IS THEIR JOB TO PROVIDE THE DOCUMENTATION NECESSARY TO DO THAT. ALSO, REALIZE THAT STG ONLY PROVIDES THE PRETTY SIDE OF THEIR TIME STUDIES. THEY ALLOW 4 MINUTES FOR "PERSONAL TIME, WHICH WILL INCLUDE REST BREAKS, ETC." THEY ALLOW ROUGHLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME FOR PARTS AND TOOL PROCUREMENT. WHAT A JOKE. THESE ARE NOT TIME STUDIED. THEY ARE JUST WHAT GM DECIDES. WARRANTY IS NOT A TECH'S FAVORITE, BUT PROPER DOCUMENTATION AND CLOCKING WILL MAKE IT LESS FINANCIALLY DEVASTATING TO THEIR TIME FLAGS.

[GreggT67]

Mary,

I have to disagree with you on a one point.

1. "THEY ALLOW 4 MINUTES FOR "PERSONAL TIME, WHICH WILL INCLUDE REST BREAKS, ETC." THEY ALLOW ROUGHLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME FOR PARTS AND TOOL PROCUREMENT."

The time studies do not allow a set amount of time for each repair for tool procurement, personal time, rest breaks and parts acquisition.

From what I remember GM adds 16% to the end result of a time study for such things as tools, parts, personal time and rest breaks. This comes out to 9.6 minutes per hour. I know this may not seem alot but why should it be GM's or any manufacturers responsibility to pay extra time for a lack of counter people to service a technician, for tools not properly retained and accounted for?

A dealership should bear some responsibility in the efficiency of their technicians.

[JerryM]

Here's how to deal with techs...
YOU don't write the LTG, you follow it.... You don't agree with the LTG (0.8 to R&R a master cylinder AND bleed system?) you follow it.. I code warranty for 5 franchises, 2 GM, 2 Import (Isuzu and Saab) and AM General (Hummer)....PLUS Conversion Vans ... et al.... Techs get paid what the (whomever) factory says....PERIOD....If that job was easy, "Everyone would be doing it".

The bottom line is......It's not YOUR fault....Blame the Factory!!!!!

btw--- 1.2 (GM) for an EVO sensor is pretty darn good..... The door swings both ways!!!

[Mike Davis]

Hi Jen:

We have had pretty good luck in getting a response to the review requests from Chrysler, this doesn't mean that they agree and change all of the ones that we request but they are at least looked at. I think that if the techs take the "whats the difference" approach they need to realize that the factory isn't going to change until they get feedback. If nobody in your shop says anything about a problem they have with a policy or issue what happens? It usually grows and festers here until it is addressed. If the manufacturers don't hear from all of these techs why change? They know it is an issue and like many things are waiting until it is a "big" issue. Bury them in paperwork so that they totally understand the magnitude of the problem and they will at least pay attention and listen. Remember that the guy in Detroit or wherever that made that policy has probaly never been a tech, service manager or administrator and is doing things the way he was taught by somebody similar that had the job before him. I immediately hand our techs a review request when they complain and very seldom get one back from them to fax/mail to Chrysler, until they do I don't want to hear about it!



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Mike

[Jen]

I did some research yesterday. I looked at various LTG times in the computer and compared them with our Motor or Chilton's manuals, which the guys use for looking up customer pay times. Some were a few tenths more (most were) but it wasn't a drastic difference. I had talked to one of our Service Advisors, who had submitted many Requests in the past, all of which were either ignored or denied, according to him.
He had given me an example of how the LTG isn't so accurate: replacement of a center arm rest/console for .2 (CK truck, I believe). That doesn't seem like much considering what he said had to be done to put it in, plus dealing with the parts department, etc. Then I have guys saying it only takes 20 minutes or so to replace an axle seal or output seal (can't remember which kind!) and they get anywhere from 1.1 up to 3.7 for whichever kind it happened to be. (You get my point) How can it be that inaccurate? I guess it depends also on how often the tech does a certain job, ie. if tech #1 is basically a transmission guy, he'd be able to fix something of that nature easier and faster than maybe something electrical. He may have had the electrical training but doesn't do electrical work as much or well as tech #2. That may have something to do with whether the tech feels that he didn't get enough time for the job. Does that sound legit?

[GreggT67]

Jen,

I'm not so sure I'd believe what the service advisor had said about his LTG requests. Back in 1995-1996 I submitted 19 LTG review requests and received answers to all of them. A number of them did bring about a change to the LTG's and a few didn't. But I did feel GM did a more than adequate job of reviewing each request. One time I received a phone call from one of the guys doing the time study. He needed some more information in reference to request. GM had taken out a labor time for moldings on a vehicle. Not sure which body platform. The "time studier" called and asked me if I could look up the part numbers for him so he could verify the parts were still being used on the particular vehicle. After passing along the needed information the labor times for the repair found their way back into the LTG's on the next revision. I'm a big believer in the LTG review process.

[slilly]

THE FLAT RATE SYSTEM IS OUTDATED AND HAS OUTLIVED IT'S USEFULNESS. TECHS "HATE" THE FACTORY SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE SOMEBODY ISN'T BEING "COMPLETELY HONEST" WITH THEM.
AND IF YOU GET RIGHT DOWN TO IT, WHY IS THEIR ERRORS WITH "SO CALLED" TIME STUDIES OR STUDIERS?
SUPPOSEDLY EVERYONE ONE OF THE TIMES THAT ARE IN OOUR FACTORY LABOR TIME GUIDES HAVE BEEN STUDIED. IF YOU COMPARE THE FACTORY TIME WITH "MITCHELLS" OR OTHERS USUSALLY THERE IS A 60% "MARKUP" OVER THE FACTORY TIME. SO WHO IS THAT REALLY DOES A TIME STUDY?
GENERAL MOTORS TECHLINE OR USE TO BE STG WAS CHARGED WITH THIS RESPONSIBILITY AND WHEN ASKED FOR DETAILS YOU BE SURPRISED OF HOW MANY THEY DON'T DO, THEY TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT IF THERE IS A DESCREPANCY.
NOW WHAT IS GM GOING TO DO WHEN THERE IS NO STG, TRAINING CENTERS ARE CLOSING, TRAINING IS TAKEN OVER BY RAYTHEON, AND TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE GOES TO A CONTRACT COMPANY ALSO?

[jrcal]

Having been both a tech then a manager, Labor Time Studies have always interested me. As a tech working on the line, I always wondered how "they" decided the times for repairs. What I have learned is:

1. Not all the labor times are studied and verified by "them" (now STG) For example, if a time is needed for replacing the transmission in a 1999 Olds Cutlass, the 1998 "N body" time is used until a new labor time study can be completed. As most techs can tell you, a new model year always brings some changes that affect the time to replace major components like the transmission. Other labor ops are done this way as STG can't study every labor op in the time they are given to come up with the numbers.

2. Labor time studies do not include the time to gather the tools and parts needed for the repair. A percentage of the time is applied for this. The clock starts when the tech is working and stops if he stops to get another tool or part.

3. The study center uses experienced techs from nearby dealerships and uses the average of the times from at least three techs. If the times vary too much between the techs doing the study, more techs are recruited and studied. The techs are usually specialized in the repair catagory being studied (trans tech for trans studies etc).

4. Time for stripped or broken bolts, broken tools, defective parts or human error are not allowed. The time study is started all over.

5. Most but not all the vehicles used are new or low mileage vehicles.

6. If STG (or any other GM employee) finds out a tech has discovered an easier way to do a repair, a time study of his repair method is completed and if approved, the procedure is used as an update to the service manuals it applies to. An example of this is the time to replace the timing gears on the four cylinder 2.5. The time allowance used to include time for removing the camshaft from the engine and using a press to remove the timing gear. GM learned some techs had made their own special tools to remove the timing gear while the cam was still in the engine. These tools could reduce the time to replace the gears from 9.1 hours to 3.6 hours. The end result was a revised service procedure and some new special tools for all GM dealerships that sold cars with this engine. And, of course, a revised labor time for the timing gear replacement labor op.

7. Some labor times are just plain guessed at. Not enough time to do the study and not enough resources available. Deadlines force these educated guesses to be used instead of a proper time study. If a molding replacement time is needed the guess is always the lowest allowable time (.2)

Clearly,a need exists for more accurate labor time studies. The only (and still the best) method for changing the labor times is the request for review forms. Make the techs fill them out for any and all complaints. These forms and the number of responses to them are what help STG management decide what labor op gets studied first. The squeaky wheel gets the oil!




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JC