ADP 9400 vs 9200

[callbob]

CCassaday:

Are you trying to convince us our yourself. If it is true that you are emmployed by one of the big three keep telling yourself that you are the best. When your employer lays you off as R+R and ADP have been doing you can smell the roses then. When that happens call me I like your loyalty to your employer I might have and opening. (if I can afford you) Speaking of "Big 3" remenber when the BIG 3 dominated the automotive market? In the 60's/early 70's imports meant a VW Bug. How does their position then compare to where the "BIG 3" DMS providers are now. In that same vein stating that ADAM, PCS, EDS, AutoSoft and Etc are the same is an uninformed statement. Are Hyundias, Audis, Nissans, and Infinitis the same. I shopped nearly all the DMS providers a few years ago. There are significant differences in the costs amoung the small DMS providers. I have said it before - do some research you can save some significant dollars.

I hope the Big/Chain stores stay with the BIG 3 DMS providers. They then have a significant cost disadvantage. And like it or not we all compete with them to varying degrees.

[Ted@ADP]

The original message posted here about the difference between a 9200 and a 9400 is incorrect. The 9200 and 9300 allowed multiple sessions on the same physical connection using port 23. That was changed on a system release on the 9200/9300 platforms over a year ago.

Matt, in response to your question, ADP charges by port to determine overall pricing for the system. Obviously, supporting eight users on a system is a lot less costly than supporting eight hundred.

[Matt Parsons]

Ted, thanks for the response. I fully can support and agree to your position that each seat added to a system costs more to support. The question I think most dealers have however is what is a legitimate charge for that additional seat/support? Many dealers I hear speaking at industry events appear to hate things like port and click charges. Is the return on these items worth the overall customer dissatisfaction? I think there should be a better way to charge for items like additional users that ties more directly to their driving of 'potential' increased expense to the supplier. Thoughts anyone?

[sallen1]

I think much of the 'port' charge issue reflects changing technology. Initially, we used 'time share' systems where it was easy to show when off-site system resources were used. Then came the in-house computers which wired users similar to the time-shares: text terminals and directly connected RS-232 serial com ports. We gladly paid 'per port' because it was an advance in technology and offered more flexibility compared to time-sharing.

Now we have cheap PC's with graphical interfaces and networking capability. It's possible to connect a bunch of computers via a single wire (or wireless?) to our DMS. How do you count those connections?

If I am the licenced user of the computer, then perhaps it would be easier to charge me per "user" vs. per "port" and allow as many port connections I wish.

We can have a bunch of PC's connected to the system but I really only use one at a time. So it seems a waste to pay for each connection (whether used or not).

Port charges and "click" charges for forms is creating a demand for alternatives... I can see an environment in the near future where ADP, R&R, UCS supply the big chains and the majority of the rest use something more cost effective.

scott

[scott m]

(Response to Sallen1). Not a sales pitch but I want to make sure that we are getting accurate information here. R&R currently sells primarily network connections to support PC's, Forms Printers, and Thin Clients (green screen replacements.) The PC's and Thin Clients are charged on a per user basis not per connection. So they can grant your wish today. My second point is that the network connections are much cheaper compared to port connection charges and I have never heard anyone complain that the fact cost to support peripherals per device has gone down!

[imacdude]

We have a 9200 in a multifranchised store. We have a Medium sized network of 60 PCs and 12 ADP Lasers. We have no problem adding additional PCs to the network. They can share files printers etc. The cost involved is only for those machines which we add reflections or use resources on the 9200. The biggest benefit to ADP or R&R is the interface to the manufacturer. i.e. Labor Time Guide, Part Masters, Dealer communications etc. I can't speak for Chrysler but our multi-franchise networks are great!

John Belen
Sys Admin

[clange]

Well .... I have resisted jumping into this discussion, but as you can see, to no avail. I would pose the question in terms of dealers not knowing what they are buying, and up to this point no one seems to have gotten the message.

Firstly, look at the last system acquisition proposal you received from your DMS. Notice that there is a price for the system', server' or mainframe', whatever you, or they, want to call it. This is the central processor for the UNIX based systems, and typically includes the operating system, admin services and ports' or network accesses'.

In addition to the main system, there is usually a section which covers the other user equipment, such as PC based workstations, or terminals for some systems. This is often accompanied by a section which details the actual installation of a network' for connectivity to the main system.

We then have to wade through the arcane software quote for the applications proposed by the vendor. This part of the proposal is actually a quotation for a users license' to the software, which in the case of a multi-store operation, is often quoted in multiple copies of the same software, even though the software is designed with multi-store capabilities.

If you look at quote for the main system, where you find the operating system, you will also note that they main networking hardware is disclosed there as well.

Since the UNIX operating system controls the IP (network) address structure, and has to be sold with enough licenses to accommodate the size of your organization, and the CPU has to be sized based on the number of users and storage requirements defined in the user profile' information provided to the DMS vendor, then the question has to be asked; "Exactly what are the port' charges?"

When I buy a copy of MS WindowsNT , Windows2000 or UNIX, I purchase user licenses adequate to my needs. I can connect as many users to my system' as I have purchased licenses for, and they can all be connected at the same time. If I want to be really efficient about this, I can recognized that approximately 40% of my users are not actually using' the system at any one time, therefore I can purchase a lower number of user licenses, and the only risk I run is that the first user to try and log on above the number I bought will get an error message.

From a system point of view, the CPU doesn't care whether my users are logged on via a network or via an older RS232 connection using a terminal server. And technically, the application software was sold to me based on my usage profile, therefore it doesn't care how many users access it. I purchased the license, and support services, for each application, and I expect to have access to those applications.

All of these points are in front of the dealers nose. If you don't understand, and negotiate hard, then you have little basis for complaint. These points have all been negotiated successfully before, since they are consistent with the way business is normally' done in the real world of data processing. There are many more issues, which are almost more important than these details, which need to be addressed in the agreements which dealers so blindly enter into.

You all have to remember that for the most part, you are amateur computer buyers being worked by professional computer sellers. If you are not on top of the system acquisition process and have everything nailed down before you sign the papers, the next sound will be you shooting the toes off your feet, and your money going down the drain. And it is doubtful that your car manufacturers are on your side. Sound familiar?

Think about the prospect of rearranging your investment in technology, and taking charge of your own network and infrastructure, including having on-site professional administration. You control your network, and the DMS becomes just another system in the infrastructure. You want to change, plan for it, and make the change ..... you are in charge, and you own it. By the way, that would normally be the last recommendation, however it makes a point.

You would never purchase a vehicle, and then put yourself in a position where someone else could tell you how to drive it, and charge you for the privilege. And when it ran out of gas, you would have purchase a newer model before they would let you drive it again.

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Chris Lange
Senior Consultant
Automotive Technology Associates, Inc.
clange@carstoresystems.com
401.826.2885

[This message has been edited by clange (edited 08-05-2002).]

[Kevin Kavanagh]

Ive been watching, with interest, this string for a while also. Having both sold systems for one of the big three and worked as a consultant, helping dealers buy and use systems, for 6 years heres my $.02:

1)This industry like any other has gone through significant changes as to type of systems, how they are configured and sold.

2)Like any good business the major DMS vendors created a profitable environment for them and their shareholders.

3)The advent of the PC is NOT the panacea everyone makes it out to be. It is suggested in this string that dealers develop their own in house IT staffs.Is that your business?

4)How many dealers are ready to install a network of PCs, maintain them, train their people on the PC and system software and manage all the communications requirements form manufacturers, finance and insurance institutions and aftermarket companies? Everyone sends all their new managers to the DMS school for training, right? Are you ready to replace all your PCs every 2 to 3 years so you can load whatever Microsoft decides is the current product? And by the way you do have to buy a license for each machine regardless if it is accessing the system. (One o the reason Linux is attractive to many companies)

5)Pricing will change as this industry moves to more Off the shelf hardware and software. In the mean time dont we always say our business is different than other business? Remember this is turn key software designed around our industry

6)Why is it the major consolidators use the big three? Do you think there is an issue with creating, marinating and supporting a DMS system that is cost prohibitive? Dont you believe these public consolidators have deep enough pockets to develop something in their own?

7)The manufacturers do not want to deal with 30 different companies that they would all have to constantly keep updated with manufacturer initiatives. This would make it almost impossible to allow them to move you and them forward in technology advances.

For most of us the issue of cost has more to do with utilization that what we paid up front or on an ongoing basis. We ALL forget that most of us cannot open the door in the morning without the computer. You may have experienced a down system and KNOW how painful that can be. How many of your F&I managers can do a deal without the machine? Can you even create a manual RO and who in accounting could work a manual accounting system? Cost is all-relative, if you are not happy with your results look inside your four walls first to see what you may need to do to get better results. Computer training is the most neglected area in any dealership I have been in (PC or DMS).

Should you analyze your needs to see if a smaller player is a better choice, absolutely? Most of us have come to depend on the manufacturer items mentioned above and many of your smaller vendors dont have them (think warranty, labor time guides, etc.). However if you dont need or want all the bells and whistles the big three offer they are valid alternatives. The one caveat to that is make sure they can REALLY handle your manufacturer communications.

More often than not we get what we pay for and get the results we expect based on our actions.


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[Unhook63]

A suggestion to gain some further perspective on this topic would be for auto dealers to talk to other busines people they may know in their community and inquire as to what percentage of revenue they spend on IT and or Data Processing. Ask the individual who operates a chain of grocery stores or "widget" manufacturing company as to what type of annual investment they need to make in a "computer system". I think Dealers will find that on a across the board comparable percentage basis they have it pretty good for what they get.

I would also reiterate the point that dealers too often tend to focus on the over all expense of their systems as opposed to focusing on the system utilization and productivty. However utlization is directly linked to "processes" and dealerships struggle to really effectively change their processes.

If a new set of golf clubs really knocked 10 strokes off your game you would gladly pay a premium for the set. However too often dealers pay for expense golf clubs and see no improvement in their games because in actuality they also needed some leasons to change their swing. Moral is if your not willing to pay for the leasons don't bother buying the new golf clubs.

[Kevin Kavanagh]

Well said Unhook. I was afraid I scared everyone away.....

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