Can't Duplicate!!!

[bam]

I don't want to bore you with every detail, so let me be brief...

A customer with a '98 Caravan has been in 3 or 4 times over the last nine months with a complaint that her dome light comes on randomly, her gauges go to zero and then go back to normal and her wipers go on occasionally. These things don't all happen at the same time and I think they happen very rarely.

We have NEVER been able to duplicate any of these problems. But under pressure we have replaced two BCMs, a multifunction switch, and a wiper motor. We have tediously inspected the main wiring harness and inspected numerous other electrical connections.

Our owner has spoken with her and has asked the Service Department to get the vehicle back in and figure out the problem. We intend to give that our best shot.

A couple questions: 1) What are your thoughts in general about this case. 2) Any thoughts on what might be the problem?

[robc]

Let me answer your questions in reverse.

(2) Not a clue. (That isnt meant to be funny as much as I trust if you put forth all this effort, then I wouldnt insult your tech by offering a cheap guess.)

(1) It sooooo depends on the customer. Let me share my thoughts about these types of situations as I see them when working with shops, trying to be as brutally honest as only an outside "consultant" can be.

My first response - totally honest - would be "have you visited our new vehicle showroom, ma'am?" Seriously, if this were my mom, I'd tell her to trade out of the vehicle and put this problem behind her because anything this freaky and intermittent just isn't worth the aggravation.

Issue #1, you've done all that work and have never, ever, duplicated that anything is happening to the vehicle. That is a liability waiting to happen. Who paid? The customer bought this work with no verification of the problem? I mean a 98 isnt under warranty.

Issue #2, given the above out of warranty situation, I would assume that there is no chance to pass this off to the local factory field engineer. In general, I think that dealerships are sometimes too tenacious with nightmare jobs. I mean it is an admirable quality and I respect shops that want to see repairs to the end, but at some point you have to cut your losses and the right business decision is to pass these off to the factory. Again, that might not be an option here I am just saying in general. Understand I live by the motto of were the dealer; if we cant fix it who can? We have to fix it. Personally, for me it as an ego thing because I hate when a repair kicks my butt, but doctors cant save everyone, and techs cant always fix everything. Sometimes it just doesnt make economic sense to keep after it, and it is time to think of alternate solutions.

Issue #3, Back to the owner. If they are being reasonable and understanding I will put forth every effort I can. But if they cant understand that unable to duplicate = best, educated guesses, then I really cant help them. They either have to wait until the problem manifests itself to us, or consider their options. When I explain intermittent concerns to a customer, I let them know that unless the problem happens at the minimum twice while in our possession, we are really only using our knowledge to fix it. We need it to happen once to verify the exact concern and a second time to diagnosis or pinpoint the problem.

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** Rob, Editor Dealersedge/WD&S **
Help is only a message post away!
robc@dealersedge.com

[bam]

Thanks Rob. I always appreciate your thoughtful and reasoned input.

To clarify a couple issues that you touch on...

The customer has paid zilch thus far. She has a service contract that has covered most of it and we have, in essence, DONATED a bunch of diag time. There isn't much chance that we could successfully submit any more claims to her service contract regarding the same problems we have already submitted for.

The customer has talked about getting a new vehicle but is using the fact that we haven't been able to solve her problem in the service department to indicate that she'll shop elsewhere.

The customer has also been "less than understanding" as we have attempted to explain dilemma.

Do these facts alter your opinion and advice?

[robc]

Based on my gut and not knowing everything about the situation I would do the following:

-Put one more concerted effort into finding the problem. Id be willing (at this point) to invest six-hours total labor. Id give my best techs a rah-rah speech, buy him pizza, leave him alone and let him go at it.
-At the end of that, Id strongly suggest to the dealer that he place a best offer on the table for a trade-out. Quite frankly, Id spell out weve already lost $x,xxx dollars on the vehicle and these things happen (after all, while highly doubtful we have no proof the customer isnt just making up these phantom symptoms). Not only in direct repair costs, but in lost revenue from tying up the tech. It is certainly the dealers decision, but he should know that this one customer is having a profound impact on revenue and it might be best to give away $1,000 on a vehicle than to have this hang over the shop for weeks months.
-Give the offer to the customer and word it as nicely as possible that it a bottom of the barrel, no-gross deal worth $xxx off what a normal deal would be. There is no way she can get more vehicle for this type of money. And, while youre sorry her last van was a wack-job that is so rare I cant imagine a customer getting two in a row.
-If she turns down the offer, politely say, I am sorry, we cant address the concern on your vehicle again until you can bring it in while it is occurring. If someone isnt willing to take advantage of what would probably be less than a mini-deal then youve already lost them as a customer and all youd be doing is throwing money a customer that is never going to return the favor.

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** Rob, Editor Dealersedge/WD&S **
Help is only a message post away!
robc@dealersedge.com

[john]

Rob,
Your observations are good but few sales managers will see the benefit of entering a deal with such a disadvantage. A jinxed trade-in and a low gross deal to satify a SERVICE customer - that takes a strong organization and a push from the dealer to make that happen. Lets face it, the van is probably a lost cause, so every thing we do should be done toward salvaging the customer.

Let me suggest an approach that works well:

This is classic management stuff - information is power and proper information management can lead you to understanding problems like this and mitigating it's effects on the customer's opinion of your service.

Is there a CND process in place in the Service Policy Manual that reduces the buz of "questions and emotional background noise" and organizes the approach to the repair so that the probability of a positive outcome is optimum?

As a Service Director, Ex Factory Rep, and Certified Master Tech, I would never give this job to a technician without explicit instructions on what would be done, hands on follow-up, and agreement on the findings (3hrs going in with more as needed).

lots of questions have not been answered here and critical clues could be missing as a result.

1. Was this a used car you sold or new?

2. Did anyone question the customer about past service at another shop being performed?

3. Was the service record at the dealership examined for service to another system that could potentially affect the wiring loom - especially grounds?

4. Did anyone go into the wiring diagram and find connectors that are common to the affected systems - were they inspected for condition, cleaned and reconnected?

5. Did anyone go into the schematic and find grounds common to the affected systems? Were these cleaned and reconnected? This is the crucial other half of every electrical system most techs forget about.

I agree with Rob:
1 give the customer a loaner for a week.
2 roll up your your sleeves and drag out the schematic.
3 instruct your tech on what to do - After that get him back to work making $$$$$$.
4 You now have a new demo to drive for a week - personally drive it for a week. If the problem does not show itself, give it back to the customer.
5 Before giving it back, sit the customer down and explain in detail what you did. They will appreciate the loaner and your going the extra mile to be personally involved. The van may not be fixed but I promise you, the customer will have a positive opinion of the service department.
6 Explain the low probability of repair if the problem can't be duplicated and assure them of your commitment to see it through. At this point you are trying to save the customer - the van is a lost cause. Later on the customer may decide to trade on their own but your investment in time and personal attention will pay off with a valued customer.

WHATEVER YOU DO - DO NOT CALL THE CUSTOMER AND THEM THEM IT IS FIXED - DO NOT SEND THEM TO THE CASHIER TO PICK UP PAPER WORK AND KEYS - THIS VEHICLE SHOULD BE DELIVERED PERSONALLY BY YOU.

YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO FIX THE VEHICLE, BUT YOU CAN FIX THE CUSTOMER!

SER SOL
JOHN
PIKA68@AOL.COM

[BIG ORANGE]

In my years I have seen many types of problems like this. As far as the concern goes with the van. Have you contacted you local tech rep. to see if he has any ideas? I think the common ground with all the problems is the bcm or the wiring with the bcm or bus something like this. Good luck on this problem. One more thing. I tell you this from experience. Make sure you have the right tech looking at the van, also contact star and always and most important, start with the simple things, such as connections and so forth. Good luck

[stevet]

Just a thought. Does this van have a handicap conversion?

[chrabo]

There was a TSB for "phantom wipers" that addresses this issue. You have replaced all three suspect components. You will never be able to duplicate due to the low frequency of this issue. I suggest to try to get them into something else and move on.